Mistyping on forums

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Mistyping on forums

Postby skyboy » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:02 pm

Hi,

This is a general question about how to behave on internet.

I sometimes get the feeling that people talking on forums or Facebook are mistying themselves. I'm talking about the main type. Finding our own tritype is even harder, and well... it's something we have to stay "open minded" about. Sometimes it's more an intuition than analysis, because it cannot be detected in the words they say.

It can also be by just looking at photographs. I'm not able to do it for all types, but some faces seem be saying "I'm this type". I'm quite efficient on detecting 6s and 7s for example. Well... I THINK I am.

The first fact is, I have no certainty. The enneagram needs a lot of training to be able to see other peoples type. I would say that it takes, for me, around 6 month of spending time with someone, talking, listening and observing, to have a certainty. It's getting clearer everyday, but I did a million mistakes. Some people have an obvious type, while for some others, it's like a real mystery. My best friend (12 years old friendship) is still untyped by me, even though he's been learning the enneagram a little, and we had a lot of talk about it. He's an extreme case, where I'm still hesitating between 9,5 and 2. I think 9w8, but I'm really not sure. Actually he's really balanced, open and clever, so that his ego is not "all over the place".

So my question is :

Do you think it's a good thing to suggest to somebody, WHO IS NOT ASKING, on an internet forum or Facebook page, that you're not sure about his type, that for example, he sees himself as a 4, talks about himself as a 4, but that you have the feeling he's a 6. Should we say it ?"

The enneagram scares me sometimes, to be able to have a great "power" on people, to see what they do not see. And I would NOT accept from myself, to use it for selfish curiosity, while the places we discuss this all, should be a warm, non-judgmental, open minded place. And I know I have judmental tendancies, especially in the I talk.

If you have already been thinking about this, I would be grateful to have your personal vision.
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Re: Mistyping on forums

Postby OtterRocker » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:54 am

My guess is that most people will mistype for awhile. As long as you're not obnoxious about it, I would think people would appreciate the feedback. You made some comments to me based on things I said and I found them to be interesting and thoughtful. If someone is willing to come on a forum like this and discuss their type, wouldn't they also expect that people might share opinions about what they've shared?

The tritype concept helped me so much because there was no way I could narrow my personality down to one type alone. The arrows and wings somewhat explain that, but I found the tritype the best explanation of why people seem to so clearly demonstrate more than one type.

I enjoy people giving opinions (as long as they aren't assholes) and sharing a different perspective. A woman who encouraged me to look deeper at the enneagram thought she was a four for YEARS. Then she went to a workshop with Risso and Hudson they told her they thought she was a seven....when she went and stood with the other sevens she knew they were right. She has a very good grasp of the enneagram, though she's new to the tritypes, and she mistyped herself for a long, long time. And indeed she probably has a four for her heart center.

I find that under extreme stress people seem to disintegrate along the arrows which can cause further confusion....I know there was a time in my life where I was very ninish for years. One day it just stopped working and I literally changed overnight. I'm not a nine, but a six. I swung at that time into being more threeish for awhile. Also, at my highest highs and my lowest lows I seem to become the most fourish. Perhaps these are the times I go to my heart center?

So do people on these forums mistype? Uh, yeah. Is it wrong to offer your opinion? Have at it. And knowledge will always give you power. Why would you fear power which you use in a kind and nonjudgemental way? If you judge others it may be you were judged a lot and have a wound there. The shadow side of understanding others can be to judge and criticise. I work on that every day. I'm told that one must begin with loving oneself. If you judge yourself, judgement of others will follow. I have one in my tritype which lends itself to this. As a four you have an arrow to one and may end up there at times.
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Re: Mistyping on forums

Postby skyboy » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:42 pm

Mistyping 7 for 4 is easy when you learnt the ennegram in books. In the way they are, they are totally different, but 7s will easily identify with artist parts of fixation 4. If you skip the gloomy negative image, lingering sadness and emotional envy, well... there really are many things in common. 7s like originality, have tons of humour, and sometimes they can have a subtle sense of beauty like 4s. 7s could be the "second artists" of the enneagram somehow. Because of curiosity and liking to do unusual things, they can go very far. But art does not usually have "self revealing" sides of 4s. 7s I know are also more eclectic. 4s I know have stronger likes and dislikes : "this is great vs this is shallow or bullshit".

My first encounter with a 7s (sx), I thought she was of 4. We shared a lot, in music and humour, and we even went into painting together. I though of her as having brilliantly left behind obsession with feelings, and as a 4, she seemed ultimately close to liberation from this point of view. Then I thought of 2 because being more positive. I tested her on "helping people", and it turned out not be her favourite thing to do. Finally I thought that 7 was possible, and by observing her, and reading my books again, it became obvious. She is 7 with a score of 100%. She lives in the present moment, she cannot wait, she likes to laugh, discover things and people, travelling, having fun, making jokes with her friends, curious with everything but rarely able to focus on a subject longer than 10 minutes :-). Since, I have a better vision of what a 7 is. But I'm still learning, because their are many kinds of people that are 7s, while being quite different in behaviour.

I feel that there is much to learn from 7s when you are a 4 : taking life in a lighter way sometimes. Not being hurt, touched or unsatisfied by everything. Watch, let it flow, and laugh about it all.

But of course, the term "hedonist" is less pleasing to a 7, than "artist", so they like to see themselves as 4s.

I still have much to say about what you said OtterRocker. I'll spend time for this another day. This message is already long enought... :)
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Re: Mistyping on forums

Postby skyboy » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:54 pm

I'm back.

I think my first message contains its own answer. You may easily ask somebody if he's sure about his fixation, suggesting that another one could be more relevant. And just don't be an "ass-hole" as you say.

The fact is, I have have a long personal history of conflicts with 6s. Some of them incredibly intense and mad. I'm trying to forgive and forget, but I know it is still unsolved inside of me. And it still happens from time to time to be attacked by a cp 6 who becomes afraid of things I say. Actually they are just idiots. I should not care about it. We say that that 4s can be a "sharp wit", and I have to admit that I can observe some motivations in me like "you're going to pay for all 6s". I become twisted. I'm growingly able to resist to this vengeful motivations or just let it go, but it may take some time. For the moment, I keep joking about it saying "6s conspire against me !". That's a way to exorcise this useless inner war.

Honestly, I never had this sensation with you OtterRocker, and that's probably why I doubt you are a 6 :-).
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Re: Mistyping on forums

Postby OtterRocker » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:40 am

I had to laugh that you doubt my sixness ;) So do I. And then I end up back there once again. Also I was thinking after using the term 'asshole' to describe an aggressive, insensitive reply, that there are probably as many descriptions of the term asshole as there are enneagram types. It's all about perspective......Sorry you've had such unpleasant interactions with sixes. Luckily, all sixes aren't Mel Gibson/Eminem types. Thank goodness. I have a six uncle who is very unhappy and very angry and aggressive. But this guy would lay down his life for me. He's the guy I'd want to have my back in a dark alley. His sister, a bright, cheery, happy, friendly 739 is the epitome of a fair weather friend. As long as you're fun and happy she's in. But god forbid you should want to discuss something painful or dark. Or NEED something.

Have you ever said a word over and over and it starts sounding like gibberish? I'm having a day like that with the enneagram 8-)

I wonder which types would be most prone to turning hurt into vengeful feelings? I think any 4/6 combo may do it. I'm in the process of learning that vengeance is one of the darkest and most toxic of emotions. It carries with it the false sense that 'if I make you hurt, then MY pain will finally go away.' NOT.
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Re: Mistyping on forums

Postby skyboy » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:05 am

Yes 7s can be incredibly selfish. My 7 friend has some of it, but not always.

I've been able to watch her reaction quite precisely one day. I started to talk about some of my personal troubles, including dark feelings 4s excel in. I didn't ask anything from her. I just talked .She didn't move or say much, but I could feel the total panic. She started to look around in stress, looking desperately for distraction to get out of it. I though "yes, 7 ! I'll stop talking, because what I do is torture for her". But as you say, when the weather is fine, she can be great. Naturally generous. And clearly honest. A good thing is she had fine education from an 8 or 1 father. It was conflictual, but she finally appreciate the sense of honesty and balance he has given to her.

6s are naturally helping friends in need, that's true. With 2s, it's more complex. I'm surrounded by an army of 2s. The problem with 2s is that they help and advise you even if you don't need to. They want to feel important for you at any cost. Strangely, they may not be there when you really need them. My relationship with 2s is globally satisfying, but I sometimes feel like possessed. I need to create a minimum distance. Otherwise I feel like belonging to them. I need independence and freedom. Actually, the best friend to have when in concrete trouble, is an 8.

You talk about vengeance. If you read Don Riso's site, vengeance is exactly fixation 8. I agree. This is literally focussing anger on an external object. From this point of view 8 should be the most vengeful type. But actually, for 8s, anger is very short, like an explosion. An healthy 8 can easily forget vengeance if he finds no practical need to perform it, seeing that consequences will be bad. For an 8, war happens immediately. Whether he acts on anger or not, anger soon disappears.

Keeping long term enemies is more 6. I've noticed many 6s who create a long term negative vision of past events with people. For some of them, it's more than what really happens. This is probably the glimpse of paranoia in every 6. They kind of make a monster out of "not much". The negative things they have noticed are usually true, but they add more from their imagination. It's a fear/worry based behaviour. I've got many examples. Here is a beautiful song about it : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV7cWhmoG9w by Pink Floyd.

I don't know if 4s are vengeful. Don't forget I'm 468, I already have two reasons to vengeful :-). Maybe the 4 wants to keep control on his self-image, and considers people attacking it as enemies too.
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Re: Mistyping on forums

Postby skyboy » Mon May 09, 2011 7:22 am

Hi OtterRocker,

I realize that my very negative vision of 6s was simply caused by having met a lot of rather crazy 6s in the past. Now I've started to meet new people that I feel to be 6s, without having this madness I observed before. Somehow, every fixation is a kind of madness. Fixation 4, for example, is totally absurd : "I'm sad that I don't have want I don't want". But when you meet healthy people, no matter what their type is, you can also recognize many of the qualities that the fixation doesn't hide.

I met a social 6 this WE, a Chinese girl. It took much time before I found out she was a 6. I thought of 3 first, because having achieved a nice professional life, coming from a very poor family in China, and having learnt a lot to become efficient in her job. But she was too sincere and little image conscious to be a 3. I thought of 9 also, because of being tolerant, open minded and quite easily satisfied. But she had too much mental activity and sense of decision to be a 9. 2 was also possible because of being helping and generous. But I "feel" 2s. They have a very specific behaviour with me, she didn't have. Finally I had to come to that conclusion : here is a 6 I appreciate.

6s can be easily confused with 4s because, these types are both "emotional" AND "analytic". What made me come to the conclusion of 6 was observing the following :
- reading between the lines : trying to see and understand what is around, including negative aspects of society and people
- curiosity and appreciating theories for understanding people
- looking for safety : she was totally aware of it and saying that safety was the first thing she was looking for in a relationship
- too much conformist to be a 5 or a 4: feeling very at ease in conformist places with a lot of people (much more than me for example, I'm 4w5 !)
- never self absorbed, so she could not be a 4
- believing a lot in explanations and mutual understanding for leadership
- using the mind a lot to fit into society : job, groups, people and cultures
- rather open minded and with a good sense of humour

So OtterRock, my argument "you cannot be 6 because you don't seem crazy to me" is no longer valid. And through the things you say, I would also agree that 6 is the most likely type for you.

I'm going to mimic a 2 here : I'm sure my opinion is very important to you, and that you couldn't have lived without it. :D
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Re: Mistyping on forums

Postby Riley » Thu May 12, 2011 2:26 am

skyboy wrote:Do you think it's a good thing to suggest to somebody, WHO IS NOT ASKING, on an internet forum or Facebook page, that you're not sure about his type, that for example, he sees himself as a 4, talks about himself as a 4, but that you have the feeling he's a 6. Should we say it ?"

I agree that a lot of people are probably mistyped (I always leave open the possibility that I've mistyped even if I'm expressing certainty, because I don't want to close myself off from accuracy and authenticity for the sake of a false ego).

I think it's okay to suggest a different type, but only if you present it the right way. Keeping in mind that you've probably never met the person, I'd suggest saying it like, "What you're saying seems more like type ___ than type ___," or "That reminds me more of how a ___ (type) would respond or think," rather than saying, "No way in hell are you a type ___, you're sooo type _____." Be specific and give examples to back up your claims.

I don't mind people suggesting other types for me, I just want them to use examples of things I've said or done to support their perceptions. It's not constructive or presumably accurate to definitively tell someone they are or are not a particular type. I think some people use pseudo-Ennea-typing as a form of online vengeance.
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Re: Mistyping on forums

Postby skyboy » Thu May 12, 2011 8:06 am

Yes Riley, I agree with everything. Thanks for your reply.

After writing my first message I've been thinking about it, and I came to the same conclusions as you did. We can really say our thoughts and observations, but with a lot of care and uncertainty.

First we can be blinded by so many things. Then, understanding types takes a lot of time, and words are sometimes confusing. Also, there's no reason why people should trust you, simply because they don't know you. And finally you may be sure of someone else's type, but if he doesn't want to see it, there is no reason to force him.

I still see a few childish motivations in me sometimes. I guess growing requires to become aware of them. Actually, I never act on these motivations, but I can see them. That's very 4ish, I think :-)

By the way, I'm happy to have found this forum. Compared to "Enneagram institute" mainstream forums, there are fewer posts and people, but they seem to know what they are talking about. On most forums, you have the feeling to talk to teenagers.
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Re: Mistyping on forums

Postby skyboy » Thu May 19, 2011 1:15 pm

About vengeance, I think that 2s are the most vengeful types. When in major personal conflicts, the ego is getting scared of putting personal position to question, and thus personal value to trial (theoretically these two things could be separate, but the ego makes them tied). Being "kind" or seductive fails to find an echo in the other person, and thus the only way is to create an angry protection for pride, which means moving to 8. Since 2s move to 8 in disintegration, this makes the 8 less healthy, and instead of being strong and straight, they become aggressive, keeping the highly subjective position of 2, due to personal value issue.

All embracing types (2,6 and 7) have quite the same behaviour in intense ego attack. 7 will move to 1 which is a little less aggressive, 6 to 3 which is not aggressive but trying to convince no matter if they have checked the truth of their arguments before.

Confronting types (3,1,8) are less aggressive in conflicts. For example 8 may move to 5 to study if they are in their own right more objectively, before going back to 8 and handle the situation. For that reason, many 8s admit their mistakes easily. If they succeed to solve the conflict, they may even move naturally to 2, being forgiving and compassionate.

Withdrawn types (9,4,5) are quite vulnerable in conflicts, because disintegration point is embracing (6,2,7). They move to a state in which the self is willing to be changed by others. No matter whether they are right or wrong, the ego moves automatically. For me (4), I usually start to be over-forgiving and gentle first (at 2), understanding the other's point of view and still looking for a mirror, and then I need some time to get rid of being hurt and sad (at 4) and need to restore objectivity and depth to make a decision. This is perfect when I'm wrong, I can easily say "sorry, you were right, I won't do that again". But when I'm right, which is a growing number of situations, it's complicated for not much.

Now who is "right or wrong" is not something we can't easily define. My 6 usually gets mad at trying. Everything depends on situations, culture, choices, insights... All in all, we could say "we just disagree", but the ego seems to be designed to turn that simple fact to a fight, inside or outside.
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